Lighter Darker: The ILM Podcast Season 1 Episode 2 - Transformers One with Josh Cooley
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Josh Cooley: [00:00:00] I always wanted to work in animation And my parents, both being artists, were like, of course you're going to do that. You're not going to be a doctor.
Rob Bredow: Welcome to the Lighter Darker podcast, where we talk about the creative process of filmmaking and the art of visual storytelling. We share stories to entertain and inspire the next generation of visual storytellers to join our ranks. So thank you so much for joining us. This is our second episode, two of 20 episodes planned for our first season. This releases every other Tuesday, and it is great to have you all with us today. I'm Rob Bredow. I'm the chief creative officer at ILM and SVP of creative innovation at Lucasfilm. And as always, Jenny Ely, our producer.
Jenny Ely: I'm Jenny Ely, a production manager at ILM,
Rob Bredow: Since Todd's on vacation, we have a special guest to join me and Jenny to host today's podcast, writer, director, story artist, actor, won an Oscar for Toy Story 4, he was a writer on Inside Out, a whole bunch more award wins and [00:01:00] nominations. But most recently, the director of Transformers One, which is coming out in theaters this weekend in the U. S. and around the world, you know, check your local listings. So welcome to the podcast, Josh Cooley,
Josh Cooley: Thank you for having me.
Rob Bredow: This is so fun to have you here. So we got three sections for today's show. We got a few questions from the mailbag, which will be really fun to get us started. If we have time, we'll squeeze in a feature about rejection letters. Always fun to do with a new guest and talk about kind of that journey to success that Josh has had, and then our main topic is going to be about humor and heart. Because, boy, when I think of Josh's movie, that's what I think of like that combination and how, how surprising that can be, how it can work in your favor and all keeping that in balance. Let's start with some questions. Do you have one from the mailbag?
Jenny Ely: I do! I have a few good ones. Alright, So our first one is from Sean Calra and Sean writes in, do you outline the entire story before writing it or do you jump straight into writing the screenplay?
Josh Cooley: For me personally, I have to outline it. [00:02:00] People, you know, say they jump in and just start writing the screenplay, which is an approach, but for me, it's, I just need to see the structure of it all. I think that's probably 'cause I came outta story and just learning about structure and and just needing to see what the Christmas tree looks
like before you put the ornaments on it
Rob Bredow: For you, is it a pretty detailed outline, or do you like, grow out to a scriptment?
Josh Cooley: Um. You know, it's like, I want to know what is very easy, what the simple arc of the movie is, of the story, and then letting it grow off of that. I think you have to, for me personally, I need to have the ending. I need where, where the road map's going to. Yeah.
Rob Bredow: And then do you write from beginning to end? Or do you write scenes, and then?
Josh Cooley: Um, it varies. It just depends on, you know, every movie I've worked on has been completely different from the last. Yeah. There's nothing that's been, even from one, you know, one movie to the sequel that I've worked on. It's like, everything's been different every time.
Rob Bredow: Well, and even your roles on every show have been quite, I mean, you've been in story, you've been writing, you've been [00:03:00] directing, and kind of, you've worn all these hats.
Josh Cooley: When you put it that way,so yeah, I started in story and think everything kind of grew out of that, really. And when you're a story artist, you're basically a mini director.
You know, you have your little sequence and then you are drawing it out and hoping the director likes it and then changing it. So nothing's precious. And then when you're a writer, you're, basically, you know, picturing what the movie's going to be, but instead of drawing it, you're writing it.
Josh Cooley: So it all came out of the same place.
Rob Bredow: That's great. I like Ahmed's question here,
Jenny Ely: Yes, we have a great question from Ahmed Turki who's one of our R& D artists in our London studio. Ahmed wants to know who would win, in a fight between Woody, And Optimus Prime.
Josh Cooley: Oh. Really, Ahmed? I mean, one of them is a toy, a rag toy from the 50s, and the other one is a robot that's, uh, you know, however many feet tall he is.
Rob Bredow: It varies [00:04:00] sometimes, I think. And also a toy from the eighties.
Josh Cooley: Yeah. Right, I'm thinking of the actual Optimus Prime. The real one. The real one. Yeah.
Jenny Ely: Cooley as a kid was playing with a Woody toy and an Optimus Prime toy.
Would you have them team up or would you have them fight each
other?
Josh Cooley: Oh, man. I did some, like, really bizarre team ups as a kid, so I don't know, I think it would definitely change. somebody would backstab the other one.
Rob Bredow: That's great.
Jenny Ely: Excellent.
Jenny Ely: Okay, that's a good answer. Um, so our next one is from Nathan Camp from our San Francisco studio. And Nathan says, I understand you used some virtual production techniques during pre production. Can you speak to that process, using virtual production tools, and how that may have influenced your approach to these characters and bringing them to life? And I think before you answer, maybe we should explain what virtual production is, if there's a simple explanation for that for people who are listening who might not know.
Rob Bredow: Yeah. Do you want to describe it, Josh?
Josh Cooley: I'll try my best.
The easiest way to work on a [00:05:00] 3D film, CG films, is to get into the computer as fast as humanly possible. You know, storyboards are cheats. You're just gonna, you know, an artist draws it one way, but when you actually get into the virtual set, it's totally different, um, so, to be able to get into the computer as fast as possible is so informative and gives you so much information and you can start to see the movie much faster. So, this idea of We called it VSR Virtual Story Reel, so what we would do is, has any other movie done this?
Rob Bredow: I mean, there's been aspects of it.I think at Pixar there were some, I know, and we've done it here on various movies dating back to, dating back to Rango. we use some virtual
story techniques where you're where you're capturing real cameras. but you kind of took it further with having the actors in the cameras to really block out these scenes.
Josh Cooley: this really, I think it worked well because our characters were basically humans. You know, so we'd be on the um, capture stage and, We would have, um really rough
versions of our characters of Orion Pax [00:06:00] and D 16 and Bumblebee and Alita, and we'd get motion capture actors to fill those roles. And it became very rough, almost
like a layout, you know, really rough. And it was really fun because I was able to, you know, direct them. Like it was a play, like it was live action. And just knowing that we would eventually. We'd get the performance first and then we would go back in once that's recorded and we would find the camera angles that we wanted, which was so awesome.
Josh Cooley: It was just so great. but it was, um, it was odd because we would have the scratch already recorded. So they're basically acting to this pre-recorded dialogue.
Rob Bredow: Miming on the stage
Josh Cooley: Yeah. And I'm giving direction to just their body movements. So it was a weird, almost like a dissection of live action in a way, but it was really fun, and it was really rewarding just to see, know, um, we was, we storyboarded out really rough first, knowing that we wouldn't need to board the entire sequence, because it would be all [00:07:00] in VSR.
Josh Cooley: So, um, yeah, that's how we did it. And we did it, I wouldn't say, probably five or six times we came her and use the stage and do it. it was always an adventure, like, what's going to happen
this time?
Rob Bredow: Well, and you, I remember the very first day you did some testing. I think we all had in our mind that the virtual production capture process would be most useful for these big action sequences, and I think you used it a little bit for that, but it ended up being the, the, The talking sequences where you had to do more complicated blocking and a lot of different eye lines where I think you found it to be the quickest way to experiment, right?
Josh Cooley: Yeah. So specifically with this um, we thought it would be for action, but it was like our characters, the heights are all different. And so that's where getting into the computer immediately was super helpful. And also these characters, their shoulders are massive. And so it's like having football players in full uniform walking around. And that was the first time I went, Oh, we need to pull the camera back. You know, on everything, just so that we can see everybody [00:08:00] in the shot. So it was extremely informative that way.
Rob Bredow: So for those of you listening who may not have a clear picture in your mind, this is a motion capture stage, um, down here where we're actually in our San Francisco office right now. So it's, it's actually just downstairs from where we're sitting right now recording this podcast. And it's actors in motion capture suits, which are just tight suits with these markers on them. And they can perform face and body. So they were actually wearing head cams, so they could mime to the prerecorded audio.
Rob Bredow: And we also marker up virtual cameras, so Josh and his DP can walk around the scene while they're acting, or maybe they've already done the acting and it's pre recorded, and they can block in new cameras. And when they walk away from that day's shoot, they're walking away with tape of all the dailies as if they had been on a live action set. But it's actually, you know, it's transformers moving exactly the way the actors were moving on stage, kind of live.
Josh Cooley: Yeah, that was a trip seeing our actors move and then seeing through the, what is it, um, magic
Rob Bredow: Yes, magic mirror [00:09:00]
Josh Cooley: Windows, however we were describing it, that you could just see them doing the exact same movement. On the set that we already built, it was crazy.
Rob Bredow: Yeah. So in addition to looking through a camera, which is basically a monitor with some markers on and some controls, we also have TVs that are turned sideways, kind of shaped like a mirror, and you can roll those around the stage and the actors can see themselves in those TVs, but we have them configured to be a mirror, so they know how to perform with those huge virtual shoulders on these big, Basically turned into a transformer of the right scale, so they can each play the right character.
Josh Cooley: Yeah, and some of the characters would be larger than others, so we had to, you know, call out where the eye line needs to be.
Josh Cooley: You need to look, you know, four feet above their head as opposed to looking into their eyes. um, I don't remember who said it. It was, we don't, we realized we don't want to do it for the action stuff. We wanted to do it for these talking scenes because we could do the, we could have them emote as well, which would be huge in the story reels to have that. And I remember seeing somebody's face confusion of like, you want it for the talking [00:10:00] scene. That's right It's like, okay.
Rob Bredow: It seems counterintuitive, but the amount of time that is spent, like, refining if you're doing a scene like just shooting this podcast, people talking around the table, refining eye lines, getting the sizes right. And of course, you can do that all in layout and in Maya, um, or different 3D tools. And you had an amazing layout team with you did amazing sequences on this film, both at Paramount.
Rob Bredow: And then, you know, supplemented with some, I know some ILM artists maybe have contributed a little bit and different But, but this gave you a tool that you could rough these scenes together much, much more quickly, even though it was going to get reanimated in animation. This wasn't, this wasn't an animation mocap movie. This was an animated movie.
Josh Cooley: You know, I came from an animation background, so when this idea was first brought up, I was like, wait a second. Hold on. Mocap? I don't know about that. You know, it's not my, I like the hand animation, even even through the computer. I like at first I was a little like, what's happening here? Because like, you know, my mind. Having not worked with Paramount or the team before, being like are we going to get to a point where they say we don't, we don’t have [00:11:00] time to animate this, we just use the mocap and then it looks weird compared to everything else.
Josh Cooley: So I was a little wary at first, but then after that first day I was like, oh, I see what this is. I see how we could use it
Rob Bredow: And we intentionally, we have this real time facial capture system, which works with the head cams, which is really slick, and we intentionally for this show, I think it was from your direction and your team, made sure that the fidelity of the faces was clear enough to communicate the emotions, but not trying to like be a full human,like not trying to be the final animation.
Josh Cooley: That's what it was. It was when we said, can we get less emotion? You know, we don't want it to look like Avatar, for example. We don't need that detail. We just need it to be very rudimentary. And it was like, okay, let's figure out how to do less.
Rob Bredow: right. Turn it down just a little bit, but that ended up being the right thing to cut into your story reels. So you had a sense of the movie at a, at a built up to a certain level.
Josh Cooley: Yeah. I mean, when you had that, first of all, you had it a lot faster cutting it, like storyboards my editor had footage, you know, to work with. And it was great. And then on top of that, the animators had that to start with. [00:12:00] Like they had a really great reference that, that. I've already seen and directed through and so they have something to with.
Rob Bredow: A really clear launch.
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's really fun. Well, thank you, Nathan, for that question. Now, he is in our virtual production department, so that might have been a little self-serving, but it worked out really well. Prompted a good question.
Jenny Ely: Nathan just wanted you to say it was amazing.
Rob Bredow: Yeah. How did Nathan do on the motion capture stage? Is he okay?
Josh Cooley: Well, it.. Everybody on the stage was awesome. It was really fun.
Jenny Ely: Do you think it'll be hard to go back to doing animated films any other way now? Are you gonna want live people to play around with?
Josh Cooley: I think it depends on what it is. I mean, that's why it worked so well for this movie, because it was Transformers. And if you were doing it with,I don't know, something that's not bipedal and human looking, then it would be very difficult.
Jenny Ely: Yeah. I don't know. I've seen our mocap people do dinosaurs.
Josh Cooley: Well,
Rob Bredow: If you need raptors, we got this. let's [00:13:00] transition over to talk about rejection letters.
Josh Cooley: Oh,no. This is fun.
Rob Bredow: People always say you learn more from your mistakes and your successes, but of course, these kind of moments when we're celebrating a really fun movie like
Rob Bredow: Transformers One, it's easy to just focus on, like,all the hype. It is easy,
Josh Cooley: Josh Cooley: which is why we should do that. no, I'm totally joking. Uh, You want me to talk about my, big rejection?
Rob Bredow: We'd love to hear, especially, you know, for people getting started, they may be facing various challenges and to hear from somebody who's so accomplished.
Josh Cooley: Oh, well uh, so, now, now I'm really gonna hit the, bottom of the barrel with this story. I always wanted to work in animation my entire life. I don't remember a time when I didn't, and my parents, both being artists, were like, well, of course. course you're going to do that. You're not going to be a doctor. You're going to be an animator. So they were completely supportive, and I was just like, yep, I'm going to be an animator
Josh Cooley: Um, Went to animation school, went to art school, graduated, and that's right when Disney was shutting down all the animation studios, um, all the commercial houses that were doing 2d animation were shutting down. Like, [00:14:00] I was basically like, I just learned a dead art. Then I thought, well, storyboards are kind of, you know, they're like key animation poses. I could do that. And live action needs that. So I got interested in that. And so, but that was like, right, my final semester of school. So. I graduate and then uh, move back in with my parents, which is always, you know, you know, you're going in the right direction when that happens.
Josh Cooley: And then it got to a point where my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife.
So there's a happy ending to the story. she's like, you need to get a job. And I was like, I'm, I'm gonna be in animation. I'm gonna do it. And she believed me the whole time. But out of, uh, my bullheadedness.I got an application to Chuck E. Cheese.and just
Rob Bredow: Oh no, this isn't the rejection letter,
Josh Cooley: Well, the actual rejection letter would be, I got, I still have the rejection letters from Disney and Pixar.
Rob Bredow: Oh yeah.
Josh Cooley: So I'm like, Oh, I'm keeping those. Um, yeah.
Rob Bredow: Say a 16 year veteran [00:15:00] of Pixar.
Josh Cooley: 18,
Rob Bredow: 18 year veteran.
Rob Bredow: Yeah.
Josh Cooley: Yeah.
Josh Cooley: Um, But that was before, before all that. But, um, so at one point, when I got the actual call From Pixar, because I knew, or I met Joe Ranft, who was head of story at the time, to be, to come on as an intern on Cars and The Incredibles.
Josh Cooley: Um, I had in my hand application to Chuck E. Cheese, and when I went into Chuck E. Cheese to get it, the manager was so excited, because he's like, You're tall! Like, you'll fit the costume perfectly! And I was like, yeah, let's do this! I'll show my girlfriend. and then, uh, You know, unfortunately Pixar called me and I, and I decided, I was like, oh no what do I do?
Jenny Ely: Josh, I want you to know that my first job was at Chuck E. Cheese's. I want, I, you know, I kind of genuinely wanted to work there.
Jenny Ely: I worked there In high school.
Josh Cooley: How was it?
Jenny Ely: It was pretty awful. I mean, if you like being surrounded by, uh, screaming, upset kids, and sticky pizza
Jenny Ely: and, uh, And, um,
Josh Cooley: yeah, I didn't think about that
Jenny Ely: Yeah, At least the one I worked out did not serve [00:16:00] alcohol. We were one of
The only ones that didn't serve So thank goodness because being in East Tennessee with alcohol at a Chuck E Cheese’s is not the life you want.
Josh Cooley: That was a turning point in my career path for sure
Rob Bredow: So you literally had. You were that close to Chuck E. Cheese. And that's when Pixar came through with an internship.
Josh Cooley: Yes, I, because I had met Joe Rantf about six months earlier, I just kept in touch with him. and got in through the back door for sure. I remember specifically, at my parents house. I had the application in my hand. And then Remember answering machines?
Josh Cooley: Um, I clicked the answering machine and I heard them at, you know, wanted to offer me the job and I jumped up and did like one of those, yeah, where like if the end of the movie, it would have freeze framed, but I punched the, ceiling and my hand got all bloody because it was one of those cottage cheese ceilings.
Josh Cooley: So like I'm falling on the ground, bloody hand. And a Chuck E. Cheese application in one hand, and the other hand, and I'm just like happy. It was weirdly bizarre.
Rob Bredow: That's amazing.
Jenny Ely: I need you to [00:17:00] draw that moment.
Rob Bredow: This is the perfect segue to talk about humor and heart in your movies, because this is literally, your life story is the what you bring to your movies.
Rob Bredow: The combination of the Chuck E. Cheese application and a bleeding hand and an invitation to come board at Pixar under Joe Ranft Yeah, which, I mean, that's just
unreal. Amazing. And 18 years there, starting as an intern, ending up directing and winning an Oscar for Toy Story 4. I mean, what an incredible run.
Josh Cooley: I had an amazing um, education. that I don't think anybody else ever had, which amazing.
Josh Cooley: I met Joe Ranft, He asked me to come in. I was technically the first story intern at Pixar ever. And as soon as I got there, I fell in love with everybody on the story team. And I was like, I am not leaving this place. So it's like, first one in, last to leave kind of thing.
Josh Cooley: Yeah, so I was able to kind of bounce between Incredibles, Cars, Ratatouille, [00:18:00] just constantly, because everyone needed some help at a certain time, and so for six months as an intern, I was working with all the best people in the best movies. It was really great.
Rob Bredow: That's incredible.
Josh Cooley: Yeah, and then Joe was my mentor throughout the
Rob Bredow: That's great remarkable. What an incredible place to get to experience filmmaking. And you think of that era of those films. And, I mean, I haven't said it yet, but it saw Transformers One and early screening yesterday. It is so much fun, and it has so much heart, and it's so hilarious which you can see from the trailers.
Rob Bredow: you really brought a lot of those harder earned skills to the table here. Is that what attracted you
this
film?
Josh Cooley: what got me attracted to Transformers One was I read the script and, but it was actually the first line of the script, because at first I was thinking, okay, Transformers, you know, I've seen the live action ones.
Josh Cooley: I was thinking it's going to be that same vein. The first line of the script was over black. It said, this screen has been reformatted to fit your puny earth screens, [00:19:00] or this film has been reformatted to fit your puny earth screens. And I was like, what is this? Like, that made me laugh out loud.
Josh Cooley: So So, immediately, even though it was way more comic than what we ended up doing, just because tone wise it didn't feel quite right, but it caught my attention and made me go, Oh, they want to do something different here.
I'm already leaning in because I just want to do something that's surprising.
Rob Bredow: Well, I mean, when I think of your last two movies that I've seen with Toy Story 4 and Transformers One, both of those surprise and over deliver on a premise. I mean, I loved the first three Toy Stories, and when Pixar says a Toy Story 4 is coming out, you go like, well, I trust Pixar's gonna make something great, but I didn't order a Toy Story 4.
Rob Bredow: And here with Transformers One, like, you don't know what it's gonna be,
what it's an animated. Detail looking Transformers One
gonna be that is kind of an homage to some of those cartoons of the 80s. Like you surprise people and over deliver with these premises.
Josh Cooley: I feel why, you know, I don't want [00:20:00] to make something that people would go, Oh yeah, that's what I, that's what I knew it was going to be.
Because, who who cares about that? You know, I I want to do something that's,
different and, and makes people go, I didn't realize it could be like that. Yeah. You know, that's where I get excited. When I see, when I watch a movie and go like, Whoa, I had no idea that's even possible. Like, that's what I, that's my goal every time.
Rob Bredow: Yeah. So is humor and heart, are those two components pretty fundamental to your filmmaking? Or is that just me reading over the top of a couple of movies that I happen to love?
Josh Cooley: I love to laugh. I love to make jokes, um, even outside of, you know, working on a film. and then The heart is what brings, makes people actually connect to the movie.
You know, I've seen tons of really funny movies, but then nothing, kind of like, okay, that was funny, now what's for dinner, you know? But
if you've got something, I mean, that's, it's also like a huge magic trick, which I love. It's, it's like
everything on screen, nothing exists. it's not physically there. It's all ones and zeros. But to make somebody [00:21:00] look at, A bunch of ones and zeros, 24 frames a second, and then start to cry. Like, that's crazy. But I, but I love it.
Josh Cooley: I don’t know, maybe it’s just manipulation.I don't know.
Josh Cooley: But it's, to, to connect with people that way It's just, uh, for me that'sthe goal.
Rob Bredow: That's great. And how do you keep it in balance? Like, I imagine you have jokes. know, you always have jokes you can throw in. You can always make a moment funnier. But sometimes it's going to undermine the sincerity. And sometimes it's exactly right. I mean, there's moments in this movie where pretty intense things are happening.
Josh Cooley: And the jokes are coming a mile a minute. And it's all working together. And there's other times where you let it you know, ride without an interruption, without a
laugh. it's a hard one to figure out because sometimes, and you know, we'll have gag sessions or other writers helping out and they'll throw out things that are hilarious and you're like, Oh, that's got to stay in the movie. And then you watch it all in context and you're going, that joke is pulling the attention [00:22:00] away from what is important.
I would say that's one of the hardest jobs as a director is,is this thing, whether it's a joke or with a story beat or line of dialogue, is this actually. Helping the movie or
Is it hurting it?
Rob Bredow: And how do you keep fresh eyes? because you're very close to the project and you've seen every sequence hundreds of times, and you're trying to consistently evaluate with that fresh set of perspectives. Like what are your tricks for keeping, the correct amount of distance so you can See that?
Josh Cooley: I'd say having an editor that you trust is extremely important. Like that kind of feels obvious to say, but there have been times I've worked with editors and Lynn, uh, Lynn Hopson, who cut, um, Transformers One, phenomenal. And we had the great relationship where she'd go, like, let me show you something. And she, I go, okay. And just knowing that she's going to do something I'm not gonna like. And then I look at it and I go, that was great. What'd you do? And she goes, you didn't miss it. I go, what? And she goes, I cut this and this.'m like,[00:23:00] And she's right. Like it totally. It works better without it, and I didn't miss it.
Rob Bredow: So she was able to kill some of your darlings
Josh Cooley: Oh, she's a, She's a serial killer of my darlings. But I always, you know, it's always the thing you think you need. But So I guess to answer your question, I trust my
crew.
Rob Bredow: Right. That's and do you find and use test screenings to see it through an audience's eyes? Or was that part of your process on this film?
Josh Cooley: Yeah had, um, four test screenings with completely fresh audiences. there's no other way to tell if a joke works or not that's what you need.
Rob Bredow: Yeah, for sure. So on this movie, you had all of the people working for you on the film, probably hundreds, um, certainly more than a couple hundred just here at ILM. so you Have this huge, Crew.
Josh Cooley: Yeah let’s list them all .We're going to go through credits now.
Jenny Ely: There's Nathan
Josh Cooley: Nathan. uh huh. right.
Rob Bredow: and then you have your team that you're working [00:24:00] with every day
at Paramount, and then you're reporting up to, at the head of the credits, there's Paramount Animation, There's Hasbro. there's, there's a lot of people to make happy above you as well. I mean, as the director, it's your movie, but there's a lot of people who have stakes.
what are some of your tips, what are some of your learnings as you're managing both, you're managing big teams that are working for you and you're managing up to probably large teams
as well?
Josh Cooley: Yeah, there's a lot of producers on this Um, but. I hope. I've
got to say, and I think this comes across on there's a, there's a perfect balance
Paramount, of Hasbro, you know, DB Pictures, it was, it Everybody knew what we were going for, or knew what I was going, trying to aim for. And they trusted me. I, I really kind of gave them credit because I, then I told them after the first screening, I think I remember what Ramsey from Paramount, she said, I'm really excited to see your first screening. And I said, me too. It's going to suck.
Josh Cooley: And I remember seeing her face kind of drop like what, and I go, we have to be wrong as fast as possible. Like that's, that is, it's not going to be good. [00:25:00] And so, and was right, it's horrible.But, um. You look at it and go, what works, what doesn't work, and they saw, you know, but I, I never was like, here it is. I always knew that it could be better because it's the truth. It can always be better. and I think they saw that and were like, okay, he's not being
precious about anything.
Rob Bredow: And you were willing to show work that was, that you knew was still not at, not
close to your mark, but you wanted to still get their input and evolve.
Josh Cooley: Um, it was important that, you know, if I really kind of simplify it, Paramount was about, like, the general audience, how can we get everybody involved. Uh, Hasbro, like, the lore and the fans are important. Like, and then,and then looking with, working with Lorenzo, who has all the history of all the other Transformers. He's like, this is what works and doesn't work with Transformers. So I took what I needed from everybody. and, to find the balance that for me was the film that I wanted to make anyway. Which was making all of them happy.
Rob Bredow: Does your confidence to be able to show work that is not [00:26:00] to where it needs to be yet but you know you can get it there, is that, does that come from the years at Pixar? and seeing story that was in progress but you just had to put it up and keep working on it
With a big group of people?
Josh Cooley: Yeah. I mean, being a story artist,
You learn humility real quick. you'll show an entire sequence that you spent so much time on, and then the director goes, No, that we're gonna redo this. And then you're like, okay, that's all gone.
Rob Bredow: Yes.
Josh Cooley: You have to be okay with that. Right.
Rob Bredow: You talked a little bit about lore and what Hasbro was focused on in the lore and the, and the resource you had there to lean on And in the opening five minutes of the movie, you invest, like, while you have everybody fresh, you're like, I'm going to tell you a little bit about what's going to happen because it's going to matter later.
Rob Bredow: And you've got that in the first five minutes and you lean into that.
Josh Cooley: Yeah, That was the short version of the lore, which was, I mean, we really refined it down to what's the simplest way to tell this. Like literally what's the spark you need.
Yeah. because people are waiting to see what's going to happen.
Josh Cooley: So you've got a limited amount of time to go. Here's some hidden exposition [00:27:00] and even there's, there's stuff happening during that exposition. That was part of like, we got to keep people. Um, and not turn it into a, You know, history clock.
Rob Bredow: Right. You have to have a ticking clock.
Josh Cooley: You have to yeah, something to keep them, keep them invested. so the more absorb that information to remember it later. And also the visuals help So we have a visual there. So, um, but yeah, it was hard. It was, there was, um, you know, how much lore is too much lore and, and also. they, you know, when they came up with all these names, they never, It was hard. did it, I don't think with a screenplay. in mind. There's a lot of energon, Cybertron, Megatron. Like it's just non stop, you know, matrix of leadership. What the hell is that?
Rob Bredow: You even have jokes in the movie that reference that
Josh Cooley: yeah, which I love. Yeah. it's just the, the wording is just when you get somebody, you know, narrating it and saying all these words. For somebody who's coming fresh into the audience, I want my grandma to be able to walk into this movie and watch it [00:28:00] and fully understand as much as, you know, anybody else. But all these crazy sci-fi names right out the gate was a lot.
Rob Bredow: Well, it seemed like you used that motif
This kind of augmented reality particle world to be able to get a lot of story across visually very succinctly a couple of different times in the film.
Rob Bredow: So that was that an important motif to be able to use as a as a way to accelerate through some of this?
Josh Cooley: Um, well, you know, if it's a character standing there talking.
You're not going to remember that. But if you have a visual to go along with it, it totally helps. and also, I like to make the movie in a way where I'm of the belief that you turn the sound off and you should be able to pick up 80, 90 percent of the movie.
Josh Cooley: So, that's how I direct the animators. That's how I direct the story. Like, I want to be able to not rely on the dialogue. Yeah. It's a movie, not a radio play. so visual storytelling,
Rob Bredow: I mean, this movie does that so well, super fun. I'm sure the effects animators loved, all those millions of [00:29:00] particles to be able to tell those stories visually, but it comes across in a
spectacular way.
Josh Cooley: there's a sequence, and when people see it, they'll know which one
it is. It's all done with particles, I remember pitching it to ILM in Sydney, and just kind of seeing their frozen face. They're Like, did the Zoom freeze? And they're like, no, it was them. And They're just kind of going,Okay, okay.
And I'm sure they turned off the Zoom. and went Like, how the hell are we going to do this? But they did it, man. man. They nailed it.
Rob Bredow: it. looks great. It really is. It. feels very, very rich. stunning.
Josh Cooley: It's gorgeous.
Rob Bredow: When you're going into a recording session, you have such an incredible cast on this show.
Rob Bredow: I'm very curious about your process, both like prepping and what you're doing in the room, how much improvisation you're doing, how much you're able to get multiple actors together, which might be impossible with this kind of cast with their schedules.
Very curious about your process because it feels very natural. It comes
across really: nicely.
Josh Cooley: I'm so lucky to have such an amazing Not just great performance, but just great people. All of them are just phenomenal and just so [00:30:00] awesome. the way that I like to cast is I don't want to know who I'm listening to and, tell the, um, casting department, I don't don't tell me ahead of time. I don't want a list of who these people are. That's kind of the opposite of what execs like and what marketing
likes,
Josh Cooley: But, uh, I don't, and I even, I challenge them to listen without knowing who it was.
And that was, I think that was informative for them too, because they were like, Oh, that's not, This person that we love doesn't sound the way we thought they did.
And that's just the trick. Like,a lot of actors, you need their face. Because that's what they do. They act with their body. It's very difficult to act with just your voice.
Josh Cooley: It's not easy at all. And so, I like to not know who it is. I also like to listen to them on talk shows. Not performances that they're doing. on other movies because I want them as in person as well, not just an actor, but in order to get a version where it's kind of, it's them, but kind of still [00:31:00] on talk shows the best way to do that.
Josh Cooley: hearing Chris, uh, Hemsworth is Optimus Prime was a little different because
I think one of the things I did listen to was his American accent. when I heard that, I was like, Okay, he's got the depth, he's got the power, just in his normal voice.
and so I talked with him a little bit, and, you know, just on the role and everything, and then,
he's, to record, he goes, uh, I don't know, why don't you come over here? Come to my place. I'm like, great. You live in Australia, just so you know, I live in America, you live in Australia. He goes, yeah, yeah, come on over.
Josh Cooley: And so it's like, okay. So we flew to Australia six, seven times to record him at his house each time. And the first session though, uh, we were reading through his Orion Pax and just kind of keeping it loose and everything. And by the end of the script, as we got towards the end, when he starts to kind of step into his own, even the way he was performing, he was sitting up straighter. He was kind of, uh. Had that kind of cadence of it. It wasn't like an imitation, but it was this, the rhythm [00:32:00] of Optimus. And I, I literally got goosebumps and I said, what are you doing right now? that's that's crazy. What are you doing? And he goes, Oh, I thought I'd try something. I'm like, no, no, let's keep, let's, let's keep going that way.
Josh Cooley: And, I think he nailed it.
Rob Bredow: it's so good.
Rob Bredow: Yeah. The transformation of his voice over the film is so good
Josh Cooley: Yeah. It took a while to find exactly. How it should play and when it's too much, when it's too little, but um, very happy with how it turned out. On this film, we never recorded two people together.
Josh Cooley: Um, scheduling is very difficult when you've got, superstars, you know?
Um, Yeah, also, different actors, I have to direct differently.
And so there's some of them I wouldn't want to pair up because it would just be too different.
Yes, you have to make, you have to be able to direct each, of them differently
Josh Cooley: Some of them are super fast, some of them take time. So, um, and that's, that's just the way they work. And I'm fine with that.
Josh Cooley: So it becomes my job and, and [00:33:00] Lynn, Lynn's job to, uh, make it sound, you know, as natural and real as, as if they were in the room together.
Rob Bredow: Yeah. Amazing. Well, Josh, this has been super fun to get to chat.
with You
Josh Cooley: Are you kicking me out?
Rob Bredow: Yeah, well, no, no, there's one more thing. We got the
martini, the last shot of the day where we, uh, share something that we like, that is just, it can be anything. It can be a book, it can be a movie. you could do an easy one.
Rob Bredow: You could pick Transformers One if you want.
Jenny Ely: That was my pick. You guys both stole my picks.
Rob Bredow: Um, do you want me to go first while you think?
Josh Cooley: Yeah, go ahead
Rob Bredow:. So. I was uh, just recently at D23, this Disney fan event, down in Anaheim. It was super fun. And they had a new play set that they introduced at the show that I saw people walking around with.
They were like four foot long boxes. And I'm like, what is in that box? And it was the Star Tours Starspeeder 3000 vehicle play set. And
It is about two feet long. two and a half foot long [00:34:00] model of the Star Speeder from the Star Tours ride, but it's the original one with Rex in
the cockpit. And what's even more interesting crazy about this.
Rob Bredow: It's a pretty good model just on the outside, but then you open it up and there's the screen and you hit the button and the screen plays the original film that ILM did back in the eighties, which is absolutely incredible and nostalgic. And there's lighting inside the cockpit and all the seats. So that flashes when you go and turns blue, when you go into hyperspace, it is a delightful recreation of the ride.
Josh Cooley: can I get one of these?
Jenny Ely: Yeah, if you’ve got eight grand. To spend on eBay.
Rob Bredow: Is that what they're going
Rob Bredow: now? I think I saw that they were 300 at the show, and I think they sold out online, like, instantly.
Rob Bredow: But um, yeah, we'll take you downstairs. Ian has one. You can push the buttons
And see it tonight.
Jenny Ely: you should steal it.
Josh Cooley: Oh yeah, We're whispering on the podcast now
Josh Cooley: can I say something about [00:35:00] about that ride?
Josh Cooley: There's a moment, you remember standing, um, under the television right before you walk into the thing?Um, and had that like, how to board thing? There's a, it says no flash photography. There's a kid that turns takes Admiral Ackbar's photo. And this killed me my brother, Admiral Ackbar with his big fish hand, acts like he's going to backhand the kid. He like aims at him like, I, well, I, I ought to, and that made us laugh so hard.
Josh Cooley: It's just a little detail that was like, I can't believe they let that in there. It's so fantastic. Huge fish hand.
Rob Bredow: Just imagine if they let it go a couple moments longer and you get the big fish slap sound effect. I love that original. That's so much fun.
Rob Bredow: Jenny did you bring a martini today,
Jenny Ely:Well, I did. Rob stole my martini. I also picked the new Star Tours playset
Josh Cooley: Transformers One, the new movie, coming the new
Jenny Ely: I'm going to talk about that because that is on my list. But, as I was sitting here, because I found out, you know, four seconds before we started recording that Rob stole my martini, so, [00:36:00] I've been sitting here thinking about things I've been doing and interested in, and I am now depressed because my life is boring.
Jenny Ely: So this is what I've been doing. I've been um, 1800's Gothic Mystery and Horror,
Rob Bredow: Nice.
Jenny Ely: I've read The Chart of the Screw and Wuthering Heights, and I've been doing, I've challenged myself to do the New York Times crossword puzzle every day, which is a little
Bit boring. And I've I've been reading about the Oxford comma,
Rob Bredow: So are you pro or against Oxford Commas?
Jenny Ely: I'm pro. I've Turned around on it. I, yeah. I was torn for a little while. So this is my politics, is debating the Oxford
Rob Bredow: Oxford comma. Josh?
Josh Cooley: I don't know what you're talking about about.
Jenny Ely: That’s because You're an exciting person with an exciting life. You don't have to think about these things.
Josh Cooley: I think about robots all day, fighting each other.
Jenny Ely: Well, I am going to put. Transformers One on my list because I did also get to see it.
Jenny Ely: And, no, it is fantastic. And fun. I would tell you if didn't like it.
Josh Cooley: No, I mean, I mean, what, like, how did you see it?
Jenny Ely: Yes, I was fortunate enough to um, see a crew screening of it And I loved it.
It has, like we said, so much heart, so much humor, so funny. There's no downtime. Uh, it was just perfect. So I am excited To see it six or seven more times and for everybody else in the world To see it.
Josh Cooley: On behalf of the massive crew that I'm representing, thank you. Couldn't have
done it without any them.
Rob Bredow: That's fun.
Josh Cooley: Yeah.
Jenny Ely: Well, you had a bunch of nerds working on it, so.
Josh Cooley: Great nerds, yes.
Josh Cooley: Um, my martini I got one of those, uh, speaking of expensive toys, I got one of those, um, Robosen And Optimus Primes. hat you, that is, transforms by
itself.
Josh Cooley: And, uh, I've been playing with it, and my kids who are 16 and 13 come running in, and they're like, what is this thing? And it's so cool. It is like breathes. It stands there and it's just the way it moves when it's not doing anything. It looks like it's breathing. And [00:38:00] so
It freaked kids out.
And I was like, this is, this is my new son. So you guys, you guys need to fight for my love because you're not doing half of what this robot can do. You just sit there all day. All thing
Dances. and it's amazing. And and it can, and you can, Program the way you want to do.
Jenny Ely: It’s speech activated right?
Josh Cooley: you could talk to it. You straight up go, Hey, Optimus Prime is like,
but he's just like, I'm here to wish you the happiest of birthdays. And I'm like, yeah,
That's you are. And Turn to my kids. When did you wish me a happy birthday? Never. So I love that thing so much. And then, uh, yeah. I highly recommend getting one and adopting one mean,don't just buy one. adopt one.
Jenny Ely: Did you get your giant transformers?
Josh Cooley: yet. No, we're talking about the uh, they did this promotion, these like 7 foot tall, Transformers, these statues, Then they did 40 sets, 40 plus sets of them for all over the world.
And I was [00:39:00] like, Hey, when you're done with those, um, my garden can
use one
Jenny Ely: Your poor kids
Josh Cooley: my my poor wife, she's the one I, told her this is happening and she goes,
well,
Rob Bredow: What's good? Seven foot long transformer.
Josh Cooley: And I was, like I’ll go back to Chuck E Cheeses, Don't test me lady
Rob Bredow: So, thank you for listening to the Lighter Darker podcast. If you have a question for the show or you'd like to suggest a topic that you'd like to hear discussed in a future episode, email us at lighter darker at ILM. com, or you can reach us all on social media. Uh, You can look for how to reach us online as well.
Rob Bredow: Um, show notes and transcripts for this episode and every episode can be found on ilm. com uh, slash LighterDarker, all one word. And thank you to Hacho Orfali for our musical sting at the open, and to Ben Charles, also known as the, uh, Chromacy, who provided the outro music for today's episode that you're hearing now.
Rob Bredow: You can find links to Ben music in the [00:40:00] show notes. So we want to thank Industrial Light and Magic for hosting the Lighter Darker podcast. This show is produced by uh, Jenny Ely and myself. today's episode has been edited by Chris Hawkinson and we want to thank the entire ILM PR team and everyone that's working with Josh who made today's episode possible. So thank you to all of you,
Rob Bredow: including Greg Grusby. So thanks so much for listening to the Lighter Darker podcast. And until next time, may your pixels be both lighter and darker.
Rob Bredow: And now do we talk about the Oxford comma a little more?
Jenny Ely: I am so so boring.
Josh Cooley: I don't know what that is. I still don't know what it is.
Rob Bredow: When you're listing a series of objects like apple, banana, and strawberry, do you put a comma before the and?
Josh Cooley: I wanna leave now.
